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drdwash
New Member
Canada
8 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 19 2005 : 03:39:18 AM
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1). Pump was operating fine with 27PSI cut-in and 45 PSI cut out. There was a leak from gasket. I had the pump overhauled reinstalled it and was getting only 20 PSI maximum and it would keep running and not shut off.
I have been told it is either a problem with the pump itself or the injectors in the well. (Pumping up 75 feet with 20-25 foot verticle lift.
2). I have now set the the cut-in at 5 PSI and cut-out at 20 PSI as a temporary fix. The only problem here is, if the upstairs water is used and the pressure goes down, the pump won't come on, However if I turn on sink in basement where the pump is located, it eventually turns on. Which I am assuming is due to gravity fed water left in pipes.
3). If I disconnect smaller fed pipe to well for injectors and pour small amount of water down the pipe, I get water back in the pump from the large pipe, thus it seems that it works by total gravity only.(pump off of course). Does this tell me my injectors are stuck open (or is that a dumb question).
4). What is the best way to check the pump itself if you don't have injector test bed.
5). If it is the injectors and not the pump, and cleaning the injectors doesn't work, is it worth buying new injectors only as the pump was working prior to overhaul and of course if the testing of pump proves positive.
Any assistance would be aprreciated.
Dave - Canada
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speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6090 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2005 : 08:26:13 AM
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Hi Dave,
What you have is a plugged jet(injectors). The nozzle has a piece of scale of some kind in it. It is very hard to repair from up top if not impossible.
If you had a large water source under good pressure that you could shove down the big pipe in a big hurry, you could possibly flush that piece out of the nozzle. You can also break off a whole bunch of other pieces to rapidly take it's place.
Are you pulling out of a well, lake or what?
bob... |
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drdwash
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2005 : 10:28:58 AM
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Thanks for your reply Bob...
We are pulling from a 16 foot well which happens to be about 25 feet from the lake. We were actually thinking of draining the well with a sump pump and pulling the injector up to have a look (clean them if possible) or replace them. (I realize, this will be a real Big Job!).
Bob, do you think I need to have the pump tested further? You seem fairly confident (from what I have described), that it is in the well side.
Thanks again for your response and if you think of anything else, all suggestions are appreciated.
Dave |
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speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6090 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2005 : 11:05:20 AM
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How far up to the pump from the well in vertical feet?
If the well is only 16 feet deep, I can't see how it could be a big job to pull the pipe up. What kind of pipe is it?
Where is the water in the well from the top of the well down?
bob... |
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drdwash
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2005 : 5:13:34 PM
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Bob:
From the top of the well to the pump is approximately 25 feet vertically and 75 feet direct line. The injector would be down about another 12 feet or so vertically in the well (Thus 35 - 40 feet total). The pipes go in around the 8 foot level by the side of the well, so yes I think they could possibly be lifted up from that level and looked at. Or we will have to drain the well with a sump pump to get at them. The well only maintains 4 - 6 feet of water maximum at any given time (36" (diameter) x 48" (high)culverts ). (We were actually thinking of deepening it next year).
Another question, do you think I can clean the injector if I get at it or is it sealed?
Dave |
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speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6090 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2005 : 08:41:40 AM
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A two pipe jet Dave is just a cast iron or brass body with both pipes screwed into the top and one outlet on the bottom for the foot valve. By disassembling the two pipes from it, you will see the venturi tube, which will have gone up into the 1-1/4" pipe about 4 to 6". You can unscrew the tube (maybe) and clean the little nozzle you see just below it. Be sure to get the piece out of the body. If the body is all covered with scale, which I'm sure it will be. You will have to clean it all off inside and out. I would replace it. You can also assume all your lines are covered with this scale. This can be another problem. It can plug the jet again.
bob... |
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drdwash
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2005 : 4:32:49 PM
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Bob:
Went down in the well, removed injector and rest of hardware from the two elbows (at entry to well) down. I am having the entire (in well ) hardware replicated with all new pieces. Then I will start from scratch. Truly hope it isn't the pump itself. Going to install next Saturday. I did have two questions for you though:
1). When my tank is empty, I beleive I should set the bladder a 2lbs below the cut-in pressure on my control box. Is that right (28 for 30)?
2). Any tricks about priming I should know, since I am starting fresh?
Thnaks again for all your help, will keep you appraised.
Dave |
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speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6090 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2005 : 10:33:16 AM
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Yes Dave,
Two pounds less than where the pump turns on at. 30/50 switch setting, put 28 lbs in the tank before putting water to it.
As for priming, I would fill all the pipes and the pump housing completely if possible, leave the prime plug loose and turn on the pump. Let all the air bubbles come out of the plug, when it starts spraying water, tighten it up.
bob... |
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drdwash
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2005 : 6:18:15 PM
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Well Bob;
We placed the new (In well) injectors and ended up with the same results. Max 23 lbs PSI. I seem to be continuely fighting air as well. I took the pump back and had it checked again and they found all sorts of rust (Droppings) in it, so they cleaned it out and tested it without injectors in a barrel and I get 40+ lbs no problem and shut off. I am going to reinstall it this week, but I think I am going to take out new injectors and ensure they are not clogged as there was a lot of rust in the pump and I feel sure that some may have gotten through to the injectors.
The good thing is I know the injectors are new, the pump is performing well (I think). I also had them install a valve in the "Priming hole" so I can prime and let air out of the system slowly.
There is however another concern (thanks for your patience).
When I put 25 lbs in the tank bladder it seems like the tank will not fill with water (Bare in mind when I did this I was only getting 20 PSI from the system). When I lowered the pressure in the bladder to almost zero PSI, I was then getting water in the tank. Why would the tank not fill when I had 25 PSI in the bladder? Someone up here said it still is an air problem in the system. I have checked all connections and have let out the air and it held its 20 PSI for a week when I was not there. I know that both pipes are full as I ran water down the small pipe and it came back up to the pump from the larger pipe, through the pipe and out.
Thanks again for all your help, this is a great forum and I appreciate the effort as I have said in the past. The past three weeks have been hell, but your responses have been helpfull and encouraging.
Dave |
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speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6090 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2005 : 8:24:30 PM
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Ok Dave,
It sounds like the jet is plugged again. Apparently the impeller in the pump is clean.
You still have the pipes from the pump to the jet to get scale from. Hopefully it won't keep plugging up.
On the tank. If you have 25 lbs. in the tank and only 20 psi at the pump, the tank outpressures the pump so no water can go in until the pump overcomes the 25 psi. Be sure to put air back in the tank when you get the pump working again. Two pounds less than where the pump turns on at.
If your getting air in the system, this indicates an air leak in the suction line (larger of the two). If it's underground, just replace it. You'll never find an air leak.
One other thing you can do. Put a piece of screen in the return line rite at the jet where the goos neck heads toward the nozzle. It's not the best fix in the world, but has saved me pulling a jet many times when there was a real scale problem. The only problem is the restriction this can cause.
bob... |
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drdwash
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2005 : 10:33:10 PM
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Bob:
Your not going to beleive this. The pump retested just fine. We pulled up injectors from the well, checked them and cleaned out some minor rust particles, we then had 23 PSI. I changed the tank by choice thinking that may be where the rust particles were coming from. We found a minor air leak, replaced an elbow on large hose and all for not. I am still only getting 25 PSI.
Ready to pull my hair out. Can you think of any other possible cause of the problem. We did get 45 PSI in a barrel at the pump shop? I realize that did not take into account 40-50 feet of verticle lift and a run of nearly 100 feet. Do you think the injector may be plugged again?
Right now i have it set to kick-in at 10 PSI and cut-out at 25PSI, so we can function in the house. However if i leave the pump running it does not go over the 25 PSI reading???
Dave |
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speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6090 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2005 : 09:58:24 AM
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Ok Dave,
Without going back and re reading all these posts, did you ever mention the pump, brand, horsepower etc.?
If not can you provide that?
The other thing could be the jet you bought, was it sized to the pump you now have? Jets match the pump and water level. Each impeller is good for X pounds as is the jet. That is why two and three stage pumps are used in some cases.
At first you said: (Pumping up 75 feet with 20-25 foot verticle lift.) and in the last post you said: (I realize that did not take into account 40-50 feet of verticle lift and a run of nearly 100 feet.) This is a bunch different than the first statement. If you have a small pump, like a 1/2hp and the wrong nozzle and venturi in the jet, the low pressure might not get any better. I'm curious who is doing this work for you. Is it a licensed pumpman or driller or a handyman?
If some or all of the above is true you may have to buy a 1hp two stage pump to get more pressure out of this system.
bob...
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drdwash
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2005 : 11:11:20 PM
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Bob:
The pump is a Jacuzzi 1/2HP - 5CU jet pump initially purchased in 1975. The injectors that were replaced are identical to those intially used (based on recommended parts from a 1976 catalog). FYI - the verticle lift including the well depth is approx. 45 feet and the total distance from the bottom of the well to the pump is approx. 100 feet.
We are using the same set-up originally used which had no problem maintaining the 27 PSI / 45 PSI operation for 30 years.
What does scare me is the fact that all the work has been done by myself and a friend (Handy man). However, everything we have attempted is based on your feedback and that of a local plumbing entity (which BTW has actually agreed with all your suggestions (no translation problems)) We have done everything step by step as suggested, we even checked out the new injectors an extra time. We are thinking of doing that again one more time now that we changed the tank as well.
One other thing, I am going to check the pressure gauge for accuracy. We beleive it is OK, but want to be sure. The local plumber as agreed to lend me one (purchase/return) to try it in the system.
Thanks again, will keep you posted, sorry to waste so much of your time on this.
Canadian Well - EH!
Dave |
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speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6090 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2005 : 08:55:59 AM
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Ok Dave,
I think your trying to tell me that the water level is 45 feet. This is the actual lift if the pump is level with the top of the well. This is what the jet has to be set up for as well as the 1/2hp single stage pump. For a small pump to make any pressure with a 45 foot water level, the hole in that venturi would be less than 1/4". The venturi tube being a hair bigger. The fact that the pump is a 1/2hp explains the less than 45 lbs max. However when any pump has a plugged jet, the pressure seems to stick around 27 give or take lbs.
Keep in mind no matter what you do, this system will never give very good volume or pressure in today's standards.
If money is no object (yeah rite!) I suggest a submersible. Believe it or not, a 1/2hp 12 gallon per minute sub. (The most popular pump in North America) will give you the full 12 gpm along with a pressure of 100 lbs. If needed. There is no comparison with a jet and sub of equal horsepower. If you get totally fed up with the old stuff, keep me in mind, I can supply those items at great prices.
Good luck,
bob... |
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drdwash
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - Aug 16 2005 : 12:31:23 AM
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Bob:
Have been thinking more and more of replacing the old Jet pump with a 1/2 HP submersible. (They are aound $550. Cdn. up here). I would then use the the 1 inch pipe to run the electrical wiring down to the well and I can use one of the preset connections on the "T" from the new tank to run the PSI tube to the (on/off) contol box.
Just would like to know why I can't get the pressure back we once had. I am going to pull the injectors one more time and see if they are dirty or if another piece of rust may have got caught., then if still not fixed, I plan to replace the system with the submersible.
One quick question, is it possible that its only an air problem and if so, why am I able to maintain 25 PSI when the system shuts down (I don't lose any pressure. Also, why is it that when I increase the cut-out to more than 25 PSI it just continually runs at that pressure?
Thanks again for your time and Patience. Will know by the end of the weekend where i am going to head. Wish you had an outlet up here in Canada.
Dave |
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speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6090 Posts |
Posted - Aug 16 2005 : 09:35:55 AM
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The sub would be the answer to all your present problems. Just make sure you have a good bladder tank with it. You'll not hear that sub running and if the tank waterlogs, there goes your motor.
$550.00 is quite a bit since I sell the 1/2hp 12gpm for $325.45. Go look at one.
The reason you don't lose pressure after shutting off the pump is because of the footvalve holding the pressure.
Remember the pump can't get past 25lbs. The switch won't shut it off until it is adjusted to below 25 psi. The switch has nothing to do with the pumps pressure. All it does is open and close electrical points at pre set pressures. The pump has to reach this pressure at the top end before the switch is going to shut it off.
bob... |
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Topic |
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2 line Jet pump Problems (30 Year old system)
