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 Well, pump, tank, water quality, plmbg & electric
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 New Pressure Tank, pressure drops
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outdrs111
Junior Member

NJ
12 Posts

Posted - Oct 17 2007 :  12:55:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit outdrs111's Homepage Send outdrs111 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just installed a new pre-charged pressure tank.

The bladder went in the old tank.

Here is my problem: immediately after putting the new tank in, I noticed that the pump was cycling fairly often. I checked for leaks through the house and a hose bibs, and everything is fine.
I shut the pump off and the pressure gauge dropped from 40 psi to 0 over about 8 hours.

I can't figure out why. Even though the old tank's bladder was bad, when I charged it with a compressor, the water pressure held fine. Immediately after installing the new tank, I see the pressure drop off.

Doea anyone have any thoughts on what's possibly occuring or how to test further?

Thanks for any help.

Pat

speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11540 Posts

Posted - Oct 17 2007 :  1:35:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did you check the pressure in the bladder tank and set it up for your pressure switch settings? If not, read all about bladder tanks on the FAQ's page.

bob...

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outdrs111
Junior Member

NJ
12 Posts

Posted - Oct 17 2007 :  2:05:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit outdrs111's Homepage Send outdrs111 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow .... thanks Bob for replying so fast. This forum is really nice.

I didn't check the pressure in the tank because they say it's pre-charged to 38 psi. My switch is on at 20 and off at 40.

I'm printing out the FAQs now to read tonight. Thanks for the advice.

I'm just a bit confused as to how the settings on the pressure switch might be related to the pressure dropping to zero when the pump is off. Also, the tank is an Ametrol and is brand new.

Thank you.

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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11540 Posts

Posted - Oct 17 2007 :  2:18:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You bought a good tank.

Your tank can't take in any water until your pump overcomes the precharge pressure in the tank. So with 38 in the tank and the switch shutting off at 40 you only put a few cupfuls of water in the tank.

I don't know how it went to zero though and stayed there unless the pump was turned off or you have a low pressure cut off switch.

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outdrs111
Junior Member

NJ
12 Posts

Posted - Oct 17 2007 :  3:08:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit outdrs111's Homepage Send outdrs111 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bob, thank you again!!

I'm glad to hear I got ggod tank. It wasn't cheap, so I was hoping I was getting my money's worth.

The gauge went to zero when I had shut the pump off overnight to try to figure out what was wrong.

When the pump is powered up the gauge drops to 20 psi then the pump starts again, and runs to the gauge hits 40 psi About a minute or so of pump run.

If I understand your response above (I'm a real novice at this), the pre-charge is 38, and the cut-off is 40, so the pump is only running long enough to pump in a small volume of water, then stopping at 40?

If I understand, should I reset the pressure switch to 50/30 or is it better to bleed some air from the tank, say to 30 psi charge?

Best regards,

Pat
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Gary Slusser
Senior Member



Wherever we park the motorhome
728 Posts

Posted - Oct 17 2007 :  3:11:48 PM  Show Profile Send Gary Slusser a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For 20/40 psi on the switch you need 19-18 psi air pressure with no water in the tank.

You sure you don't have a leak? Shut off the water to the house past the tank and watch the gauge for some time. If the pressure falls, you have a leak between the tank and the pump's inlet in the well. Usually it will be a foot or check valve.

I see we were both posting at the same time... With the pump off overnight, water use could have reduced the pressure to zero.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Softener Forum

Edited by - Gary Slusser on Oct 17 2007 3:14:19 PM
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outdrs111
Junior Member

NJ
12 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2007 :  08:57:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit outdrs111's Homepage Send outdrs111 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Gary, and again thank you Bob.

If I may, ley me ask again:
The gauge went to zero when I had shut the pump off overnight to try to figure out what was wrong.

When the pump is powered up the gauge drops to 20 psi then the pump starts again, and runs to the gauge hits 40 psi About a minute or so of pump run.

If I understand your response above (I'm a real novice at this), the pre-charge is 38, and the cut-off is 40, so the pump is only running long enough to pump in a small volume of water, then stopping at 40?

Also,if I understand, I either reset the pressure switch to 50/30 or bleed some air from the tank, say to 18-19 psi as Gary says? (it seems that I would want to set the pressure switch to handle the 38 psi precharge rather than lower the precharge pressure if I understand the FAQs)

Thank you guys!

Pat

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JeffGr
Senior Member



SC
355 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2007 :  09:33:07 AM  Show Profile Send JeffGr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For good water pressure you want to set the pressure switch higher. The first number is the cut in pressure and the second the cut out pressure. So in your present system it turns the pump on when the pressure reaches 20# and then turns the pump off at 40#. In any system you want the air pressure in the tank at about 2# LESS than the cut in pressure, in this case 18#. This will then keep 18# of pressure on the water in the system with the pump off.
However 18-20# is rather low. I would re-adjust your pressure switch to 30-50 or 40-60. Then set the tank's air pressure 2# below the cut in pressure either 28 or 38#.
Your other problem is you probably have a small leak in the well that is allowing you to lose pressure. The system will act the same as if you have a faucet slightly open. You need to fix it.
Once the leak is fixed and the air pressure in the tank is set to the proper pressure for the setting of the pressure switch you should be good to go except I would install a CSV, Cycle Stop Valve which will give you a more constant pressure and help your pump and new expensive tank last longer.

Edited by - JeffGr on Oct 18 2007 09:35:36 AM
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11540 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2007 :  09:56:27 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think you have a submersible pump, right? If so, it shouldn't take 1 minute to put less than a gallon in that tank. Since your tank is at 38# now and your switch is set to turn the pump off at 40, the tank doesn't even take in any water until it overcomes 38#.

bob...

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outdrs111
Junior Member

NJ
12 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2007 :  10:33:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit outdrs111's Homepage Send outdrs111 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Bob,

Would there be any explanation for the pump taking a minute to go to 40? Wouldn't it be adding water starting at 20? If I'm thinking right, the pump comes on at 20, runs to 40, and is filling the entire time? Maybe I'm not understanding what happens at 20 psi, and then what happens when it reaches 38 psi.

Thank you,

Pat
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11540 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2007 :  10:55:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If the tank has 38 # in it, no water is going to enter under the bladder until 38 # has been overcome. It's like trying to air up a tire on your car that has 60 #'s in it and your air compressor can only make 50 #'s.

bob...

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outdrs111
Junior Member

NJ
12 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2007 :  11:30:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit outdrs111's Homepage Send outdrs111 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Bob, but where is the water going that starts pumping at 20 psi? The pump starts, and I assume it's moving water, but where is that water going if not into the tank?

Pat
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11540 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2007 :  11:32:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's not going anywhere unless you have a faucet open. Once the pump starts, it should immediately jump to 38 psi then start putting water in the tank. You might want to turn off the pump, drain all the pressure from the system then use a tire gauge and check the air pressure in the tank. Let us know what it is.

bob...

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outdrs111
Junior Member

NJ
12 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2007 :  12:31:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit outdrs111's Homepage Send outdrs111 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bob, thank you.

I will drain it and check this weekend. The papers he left said it's pre-charged to 38 psi, and I'll verify what it actually is.

Meanwhile, should I increase the settings on the pressure switch to say 30/50?

Assuming the pressure immediately jumps to 38 and the pump runs to 40 then turns off, is it reasonable for the pump to run for around a minute to go from 38 to 40 psi?

Pat
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11540 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2007 :  1:08:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No it's not normal. That's why you should see what pressure you have in the tank. Then we can make adjustments.

bob...

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outdrs111
Junior Member

NJ
12 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2007 :  2:40:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit outdrs111's Homepage Send outdrs111 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Bob. I'll blled down and check pre-charge pressure this weekend.

Thanks very much for your help.

Sincerely,

Pat
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outdrs111
Junior Member

NJ
12 Posts

Posted - Oct 22 2007 :  12:34:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit outdrs111's Homepage Send outdrs111 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by speedbump
No it's not normal. That's why you should see what pressure you have in the tank. Then we can make adjustments.

bob...

Hi Bob,

I checked the pre-charge - it's 33-34 psi (using my tire pressure gauge)

Pump cuts in at 20 psi, jumps to 25 psi, then more slowly fills to 41-42 psi and shuts off. Run time is less than a minute.

Thank you.

Pat
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11540 Posts

Posted - Oct 22 2007 :  1:43:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The pressure it jumps to is usually the pre charge pressure. So maybe one of your gauges isn't working correctly. From what your telling me, I would let 6 pounds of air out of the tank. That should make a difference.

bob...

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outdrs111
Junior Member

NJ
12 Posts

Posted - Oct 22 2007 :  2:43:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit outdrs111's Homepage Send outdrs111 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Bob!!

One more question: Would there be an advantage to raising the settings on the switch to 30-50?

Are there any disadvantages?

Thank you once more!

Pat
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11540 Posts

Posted - Oct 22 2007 :  3:02:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
None other than the pump not being able to comfortably make 50 lbs. If it can make 60 I would say go for it.

bob...

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outdrs111
Junior Member

NJ
12 Posts

Posted - Oct 22 2007 :  3:19:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit outdrs111's Homepage Send outdrs111 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bob, will pumping to the higher pressure cause more wear on the pump?

What I'm struggling with is understanding the pros and cons of the pressure settings.

There are no pressure issues with the current settings so that is not a concern. I'm trying to understand as I said the pros and cons of the pressure settings on the pump, and the componenets. For example, more wear on the pump with the higher setting? More wear on the bladder?

Thank you Bob,

Pat
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Gary Slusser
Senior Member



Wherever we park the motorhome
728 Posts

Posted - Oct 22 2007 :  11:52:44 PM  Show Profile Send Gary Slusser a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If your present pressure settings are ok, then use them and quit worrying about wear here'n there IF this'n that since you aren't going to change the settings. If you want to worry about something, try figuring out where the water goes when the pump is off overnight and no water was used... it may have to do with why the pump is running so long now with the air pressure set wrong for the switch settings.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Softener Forum
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outdrs111
Junior Member

NJ
12 Posts

Posted - Oct 23 2007 :  07:33:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit outdrs111's Homepage Send outdrs111 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Gary for replying.

However, I don't understand point of your reply, other than to suggest I'm asking foolish questions.
Why aren't (or wouldn't) I change the pressure settings? That was the point of my question: trying to undersatnd the pros and cons of higher or lower pressure settings. I am simply trying to understand?

And, I am trying to find the reason where the water goes when the power to the pump is switched off.

You say that the pump is running too long with the air pressure set wrong, but others have said it's running too short.

Sorry if my lack of knowledge, and asking what I though were straight-forward reasonable questions, annoys you.

Pat
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11540 Posts

Posted - Oct 23 2007 :  08:29:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think what Gary is getting at Pat is that you DO have a leak somewhere if the pump goes on with no apparent water running.

If you want to set the pressure up, it won't cause any damage to the pump. The only thing to be careful of is not to set the pressure up near the pumps maximum capability. This could cause a meltdown in the future if the water level drops.

Your best bet is to get a pump man/well driller out to see what the problem is. They should know at first glance. We can't do that cause we can't see the equipment and can't diagnose without having a hands on look at it.

bob...

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