| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Diesel984
Advanced Member
Colorado
28 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 6:15:24 PM
|
I don't think you grasp the reality of things.
No matter how much or little you spend on a pump, it should still prime if:
Unless Im Mistaken, By it not sucking up any water, it shows that there is either a problem with the suction line, or as you say "Air in the fittings"
1. You have no air leaks in your fittings.
Again, Just as I said above... Not 100% sure how that is possible with Metal pipe, backed with Teflon tape and Sealed at each connection..But I'll go with what you're saying...
2. Your water level is less than 25 feet vertically from the pumps suction port.
Verticle Water level (from where the 3' Wide metal pipe is at ground level to where the water is in the pipe is 18' to the top of the water, and as I said before, My Foot valve along with the Bottom of the pipe is about 3' or so below that level, a total of 21' of lift...Hence, LESS THAN 25'...With a Maximum lift of 26', I should be just fine, Again, IF I understand things correctly!
3. Your suction line doesn't collapse.
It didnt pull any water with the Schedule 40 PVC either, that was also sealed and capped at every connection, I Tested that by pushing water through the pipe and capping both ends and adding a bit of pressure through one of the caps that I inserted a check valve into, just to double check that it could even hold pressure...SO we're back to the Fittings again.
4. You have the pump hooked up correctly. I still haven't seen any pictures of the install.
Pictures will follow this post shortly, Im about 160 miles away from the pump so once my wife emails them to me, I'll have them posted.
5. You leave the prime plug loose after filling the pumps casting and suction line with water.
Primer Plug is always screwed in tightly. as per the instructions on the pump (and a sugguestion from a local guy here) I have Filled both the inlet of the pump, and the Drop pipe to the water level with Clear water. Mind too the water in the well is clear as well.
6. The well actually produces water.
Not to sound more like an Ass, But Last I checked, there is PLENTY of water in the well, as the neighbor next door is on the same well (depth and feed are the exact same as what our well is which shows that the well is dug to 20' Below Ground level) so Dont try and say I dont "GRASP" the reality...I get it without too many questions, and the point I was TRYING to make is that I beleive the pump is bad being that it HAS ABSOLUTELY NO SUCTION, which I determined by placing my hand over the inlet of the pump, WHILE IT WAS FULL of Water, and nothing was being pulled through it.
|
 |
|
|
docp84
New Member
FL
5 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 6:35:02 PM
|
I just check this site from time to time out of boredom and thought I would chime in since i've seen this threat open everytime i've visited.
I see a union in a picture. My grandpa lectured me about unions and junction boxes my entire life. I would take that union and throw it as far as I could then get in my vehicle and run over it.
If you still have unions, (galvanized or pcv) take them out and pipe it in right.
Also just a shot in the dark( the professionals on this site know more than me)
If your drop pipe is 3FT below the water level, and he well draws down, you won't have any water to pull. I would think this varies around the country but at my grandpas he has a 2" artesian well with a 1" drop pipe and foot valve thats 10FT below the water level just for that reason, or so he said. I trust his lifetime of experience so much that i've tried to remember everything he taught me :) |
|
|
|
Diesel984
Advanced Member
Colorado
28 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 6:57:30 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by docp84
I just check this site from time to time out of boredom and thought I would chime in since i've seen this threat open everytime i've visited.
I see a union in a picture. My grandpa lectured me about unions and junction boxes my entire life. I would take that union and throw it as far as I could then get in my vehicle and run over it.
If you still have unions, (galvanized or pcv) take them out and pipe it in right.
Also just a shot in the dark( the professionals on this site know more than me)
If your drop pipe is 3FT below the water level, and he well draws down, you won't have any water to pull. I would think this varies around the country but at my grandpas he has a 2" artesian well with a 1" drop pipe and foot valve thats 10FT below the water level just for that reason, or so he said. I trust his lifetime of experience so much that i've tried to remember everything he taught me :)
Good Call on the Unions - And I did that as well, Removed them completely and piped it in directly, And The Actual water level, even with the pipe at the bottom of the well doesnt seem to fluctuate that much with this pump running, I Tried dropping it to the bottom of the well and the foot valve just sucked up a bunch of dirt unfortunately. |
|
|
|
docp84
New Member
FL
5 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 7:40:18 PM
|
| Well then put a vacuum gauge on the suction side of the pump. If it pegs then you know its not the pump. |
|
|
|
Diesel984
Advanced Member
Colorado
28 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 7:46:05 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by docp84
Well then put a vacuum gauge on the suction side of the pump. If it pegs then you know its not the pump.
Tried that as well, There's No suction at the pump, even when I covered it with my hand and a gauge...
I seriously think the pump is just a POS, Regardless if it's a 1hp or not with the head lift and so forth..It still wont work.
|
|
|
|
speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6268 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 08:53:29 AM
|
I agree with the union idea. They are nothing but trouble. They were invented so that back in the days of galvanized pipe, the last fitting to be installed couldn't be turned so the union was a necessity. Now a days they are not necessary with PVC and POLY pipe.
If you have no vacuum with the pump full of water and your hand over the suction line there is definitely a problem with the pump.
I thought you said you tried two different pumps though.
Fittings: This is the only place I would expect air to get into the pump. I always assume the pipe is air tight if it's new. Not that it couldn't have a pinhole, but I have to assume that it's good. The more fittings you have the more chance of an air leak you have. Teflon tape and all the pipe dope in the world don't mean that there isn't an air leak in a joint. If you think sealing up water joints is tough, try sealing up joints to hold air. Especially with these Chinese fittings we are getting now. Even though you can fill the pipes up with water, pressurize them and they don't leak, still doesn't mean air won't leak through. If you want to be sure, pump them up with an air compressor then wait several hours and check the pressure again.
Products and Pricing
|
|
|
|
Diesel984
Advanced Member
Colorado
28 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 10:27:16 AM
|
Here are a couple pictures BEFORE I removed the union in the drop pipe
This last one is just of where the well is, and the pipe the pump has to push the water through before it waters our lawn...
|
|
|
|
speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6268 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 10:56:44 AM
|
I can tell by the amount of threads that are still showing on those Chinese fittings that they are nowhere's near tight enough to stop air leaks from occurring.
Nice pics though.
What is the function of that stainless looking tube about 3/8" in diameter coming from the suction of the pump going into the tank for? Never mind, I think I know. It's how they get the water into the tank and back out. What a joke?
Products and Pricing
|
|
|
|
Diesel984
Advanced Member
Colorado
28 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 11:01:30 AM
|
My guess is you're talking about the air line going from the bottom of the housing into the pressure tank...that appears to me to have no real function, maybe it uses the air pressure from the tank to push the water up? I don't know, I still think that even though its a 1hp motor, the whole assemby is a POS
|
|
|
|
speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6268 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 11:16:59 AM
|
quote:
I still think that even though its a 1hp motor, the whole assemby is a POS
Ya think?
I just saw another Harbor Freight ad with one of those for $79.99.
From the picture I can't see the whole outfit, but it looks like that tube is how the water gets in and out of the tank while the top pipe is the one that goes to the sprinklers.
Products and Pricing
|
|
|
|
JustWellWater84
Senior Member
Florida
364 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 11:20:37 AM
|
100$ pump/tank combo... Hate to say it but I told u so. poly drop pipe?.. With galvanized fittings, hose clamps, a union, and trying to pull water from over 20' with the cheapest pump money can buy. I can't imagine why you are having problems.. Lol. I think my grandpa calls what u are doing "beating a dead dog". Before you flush any more money down the toilet I reccommend getting a well guy to do this right.
Unless u are one of those know it all cops with the chip on their shoulder that dont do what u tell him because he is smart and everybody else is dumb, and would spend triple rather than admit that he can't do it. Met a few of those before.
Oh. Ok i see u removed the union.. whoopie. |
Edited by - JustWellWater84 on Jul 23 2010 11:24:44 AM |
|
|
|
Diesel984
Advanced Member
Colorado
28 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 3:47:25 PM
|
...and I did just that. I'll be honest, I can wire a house and arrest people all day long but this well stuff isn't for me! The problem isn't the pump or how it was hooked up, the issue is our altitude, and I believe it was mentioned on the first page, but nothing further. So I'm going to leave the pump stuff alone, and have them come out and do what they do...
I was told the first blue pump is a Monarch convertable deep well jet pump, and the pump just needed new armatures in the motor (which it will get now!) But they're going to come out and drill the well a bit deeper and fix the other pump for me.
I appreciate the help, and should this franklin pump give me any issues, I'll be back here with questions. |
|
|
|
snake
Advanced Member
CA
135 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 4:46:27 PM
|
| I don't see any tape on the Galv fitting that goes into the SS pump... |
|
|
|
JustWellWater84
Senior Member
Florida
364 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 5:19:31 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by snake
I don't see any tape on the Galv fitting that goes into the SS pump...
And with as much threads as i see, looks like they are all hand tight
Smart move getting someone out to fix it |
|
|
|
Diesel984
Advanced Member
Colorado
28 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 09:19:42 AM
|
Let me pose a couple other questions....Being as I just received an estimate from the Well place of $983.53 to just replace the drop pipe and the pump...
The guy that came out said we need a pump that doesnt necessarily deal with pressure, but one that does more flow. When I explained to him that we had a 1hp Jet pump and there is also a 1hp centrifugal pump (the older rusted water ace one) he stated to my wife and I that both of those pumps are not what we should have been using (typical salesman)
My question is this - If I were to buy a 1hp convertible deep well pump (which is what I was told we need by these guys because of the altitude) would it suffice?? especially since we had a 1hp pump in it before, I dont understand why a 1hp wont work again... |
|
|
|
speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6268 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 09:34:54 AM
|
No matter what you buy, shallow well, deep well your going to have a limited amount of water. Your at the limit of a shallow well jet pump and two pipe jets don't produce squat for water. Ten gallons per minute is a lot of water for a two pipe jet and that's at zero pressure.
A submersible is the best pump for what you have. Problem is if I remember correctly, you only have about three feet of water in this well. Or am I thinking of another thread?
These guys are out of their mind. You showed us pictures of a jet pump (not much water but better pressure) and a self priming centrifugal (not so much pressure but lots of water) which is the two basic kinds of shallow well pumps. I wonder what these genius's have in mind for a third type of pump? They are overpriced as well.
Don't get stuck on horsepower either. A big box 1hp pump is about equal to a 1/2hp brand name pump. They play games with service factors on motors. Most if not all of the big box pumps are 1.0SF. Brand name 1/2hp motors are sometimes 1.65 as are other motors up to 1hp usually. When you multiply the SF times the horsepower you get actual horsepower. So a 1hp motor with a 1.65SF is really a 1.65 horsepower motor. The 1/2hp with the 1.65SF is a .825 horsepower. Anything with a 1.0SF is just what it says in front of HP. Impellers are designed to use practically all the horsepower available to move water and make pressure. So as you can see, what you see is not always what you get.
Just like that ticket to the policeman's ball. It's not anything like it seemed.
Products and Pricing
|
|
|
|
Diesel984
Advanced Member
Colorado
28 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 10:01:24 AM
|
You're right about the Depth...And I've looked at the submersibles too...Yet again, The Local pump guy next to my Sheriff's Office down here in the county says Buy a Deep Well Pump, The Well Service people in Greeley had me set up as a Deep Well Jet pump, And one of our People here that works within the County sugguested that I buy a Deep Well Pump...
Both of the pumps I had in the first initial picture(just for reference here are the pix again) I Took them over to a place in town to see if I could just have the motors rebuilt or gone through, rather than dealing with much more of this...I haven't heard back out of the guy who has them yet, but I figure I would call them later on today and see what they have to say...Makes more sense to me to use the pumps that were in there (if they are fixable) than to buy a new one!
Water Ace
Monarch
The motor thing I agree with, and I'm not so much worried about the Pressure as I am just getting water out on the lawn, which is why I think the Water Ace pump will work just fine (if they can get it fixed)
It seems too redundant...If I Buy the submersible, I'd have to have the Well Re-drilled (or so I was told) and I can't afford to do that..
So Basically, Greeley (where I live) is at 4700', I have a total lift of probably say 40' with the hoses included..WILL a brand new 1hp convertible jet pump like the blue one above, push out enough water for us?? |
|
|
|
speedbump
admin
Riverview
Florida
6268 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 12:51:39 PM
|
It all depends on what you consider enough water. For me a two pipe jet is out of the question. Both of your old pumps are shallow well pumps. They probably won't work at your elevation.
A half horse sub would blow away any jet pump you try to use. And in my opinion, neither of your shallow well pumps are going to work at all with your depth to water and your elevation together.
Products and Pricing
|
|
|
|
Texas Wellman
Senior Member
SE Texas
214 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 1:07:22 PM
|
Back to the question on why a shallow well jet won't work at higher altitudes...
At sea level there is 14.7 psi of pressure (atmospheric pressure). I live at sea level here on the Tx Coast. One psi of water will push uphill at 2.31 feet. Therefore if I remove all static pressure inside of a pipe (suction pipe), the atmosphereic pressure will push the water uphill at 14.7 x 2.31 = 33.9 feet. However, since no pump can pull a perfect vacuum that number is reduced to about 30 feet. On top of that you have to include friction losses etc. So here at sea level the best shallow well jet pump will only suck water up at about 28', and the true number is more like 25 feet or less. Anything lower than 20-25 feet has a bad tendency to lose prime and pump very slowly.
Up at Greely, you don't even have that 14.7 psia, so the depth is even shallower.
I agree with speedbump, shoot for a 1/2 HP sub, you'll never regret it. |
|
|
|
Diesel984
Advanced Member
Colorado
28 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 1:19:53 PM
|
The only thing I worry about is that the Submersible pump wont go all the way down into the well...I mean part of the top of a unit could be exposed...
I dont have a problem buying one that will work, but we dont have anyone locally who even sells Subs...
And As far as the other two go....The Blue pump worked PERFECTLY well up until I had this issue come up, it was almost like the pump froze up and wouldn't engage...So we'll see what happens with them...
Nate |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Pump Issue!
