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 Fix or Replace Goulds Pump Model J7S
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amkazen
Junior Member

New Mexico
10 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  02:55:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit amkazen's Homepage Send amkazen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
HI, My house is off-grid and run on photovoltaic panel;s with a propane generator as back-up. We have learned over the past 7 yrs we have been in the house energy efficiency of motors is an importnat condieration. We have also learned a 220v/230v/240v motor is better for our inverters as the start-up amperage is lower than a 110v/115v/120v motor.

Given the above, we have a problem with our Goulds Model J7S jet pump: it will not start. It hums and gets hot and then shuts down. I am hoping someone can provide some good advice on the best path forward.

Why did the pump break? When the house was built our well guy installed the Goulds pump and never installed a float in our cistern to automatically start the well pump when the cistern got empty. We manually turn the well pump on when the cistern needs water. The problem? We forgot to check the cistern this week...did ot think of it because we did not believe we had used that much water. Wrong thing to do as we have a friend staying with us while he gets back on his feet financially, finds a job after relocating to our area, etc. He did not recognize the sound the Goulds jet pump makes when it has no water to suck out of the cistern as being cause to run to the mechanical room and unplug the jet pump. He let it run and viola! Big problem. When I got home about 4 hours later and discovered the cistern was empty I knew what had happened and went to check the jet pump and unplug it from the wall. Sure enough, the motor was so hot you could not hardly touch it. Well, the motor has now cooled after another 4 hours and the cistern is now 1/2 full. I unscrewed the small plug on top of the pump on the inlet side and water came squirting out so I know there is water at the pump and that it is primed. However, the motor just hums and then pops and goes silent when I plug it back in the wall to try it out.

My questions are: would you think the whole AO Smith motor is burned up? Or, would you think it is just the start capacitor? And, more importantly, should I even try to figure it out, just junk this pump, and see if there is a more efficient pump available, buy it, and install it. I have always believed this pump is overkill as it just seems so large and powerful but then what do know?

Here is my system description: 510' deep well with a Jacuzzi 1.5 ho submersible, AC, well pump approx. 100' from the house. The well feeds a 3,000 steel cistern via a 1.5" PVC pipe. The cistern sits tight against the back of the house and sits approx. 3' higher than the jet pump and approx. 20' away from the jet pump. The pipe from the cistern to the jet pump is approx. 1.5" copper pipe and actually goes up approx 6' into the ceiling to make it's run to the jet pump, where it then drops down approx. 9' to the pump. The jet pump sits ont he floor right tight against the 80 gallon pressure tank. There has never been an issue with any of the pumps. The jet pump was installed in June of 2001 right after the well was drilled and was used in the construction of the house and then we finished and moved into the house in June 2002. Oh, we do have a float installed in the cistern now but it is not operational yet. The well guy (a different guy than who dug the well) installed the float switch and control box but did not wire it, and I have yet to get an electrician up to wire it. Nobody I call seems to know how but I think this would be a good time to figure it out myself and get it done.

Here is the info on the Goulds jet pump to help determine if we should fix it or replace it. Cost estimates to fixing the jet pump and replacing it with a more efficient pump are appreciated.
Goulds Model: J7S
AO Smith Model: C48A94A06
HP: 3/4
Volts: 115/230
RPM: 3,450
Amps: 12.6/6.3
Max Load: 14.8/7.4
Hz: 60
SF 1.13
FR: 56J
Ph: 1
Thermally Protected: CET63ABN
Amb: 40 degree C
Encl Type: UC
Duty: Cont
Code: L
Insul Class:
Goulds No. J05853l
1.25 NPT Inlet
1" NPT Discharge (a replacement pump with this same size inlet & discharge would make life a lot easier and faster to replace the existing pump)
ProControl by Furnas
Cat #: 69ES109023R
Part #: ASFX

Thanks for the help.


Edited by - amkazen on May 30 2009 03:10:55 AM

Carm
Advanced Member

Pa.
92 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  06:07:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit Carm's Homepage Send Carm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"And, more importantly, should I even try to figure it out, just junk this pump, and see if there is a more efficient pump available, buy it, and install it."

I'd put a submersible in the cistern or in a pump chamber if maximum water drawdown is important, and be sure to tie in the float switch. Speedbump could tell you for certain, but a 1/2HP will likely fill the bill and cut down on your power consumption. But you may need a relay so the float switch can drop out the presumed two legs of your pressure switch.
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11659 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  09:32:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with Carm, a submersible pump is far more efficient than a jet pump. It pumps more water, at higher pressures and a 1/2hp sub will blow away a 3/4hp Goulds jet pump. I would lay the sub horizontally in the tank on the bottom, use a float switch attached to the pipe the pump is attached to so if the water gets close to the pump at the bottom, the float will drop and turn off the pump to prevent another episode of nuclear meltdown. Which is why your Goulds pump won't start. The impeller is probably now permanently affixed to the diffuser from excess heat.

The wiring is simple but should be done in accordance with code. The wires should be in conduit whereever possible. You can use the floats with up to 13 amps, but I prefer a contactor operated with 24 volts. You can see these systems in this area of the website.
http://www.pumpsandtanks.com/Helpful-Info/

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amkazen
Junior Member

New Mexico
10 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  10:01:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit amkazen's Homepage Send amkazen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the help.

I guess I should not have filled the cistern up more than 1/2 way last night to go the submersible route, correct? Won't I have to drain the tank of the 1,500 gals to get the submersible installed? UGH!

The area of the website I went to see the systems has the float float under the water. The float that was installed and is not being used floats on top of the water, similar to how a toilet bowl float is on top of the water in the tank. Do I need to install a 2nd float for the submersible?

If I go with a constant pressure submersible like Grundfos has do I still need the 80 gal pressure tank?
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amkazen
Junior Member

New Mexico
10 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  10:04:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit amkazen's Homepage Send amkazen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What is the 9 stage, 13 stage, etc referred to on the Grundfos pumps? I can't seem to find that info on the Grundfos website.
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11659 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  10:09:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't think you would have to drain the tank. If you have access through the top, the pump can be lowered into the tank with the pipe you hang it on.

Two floats are needed. The first one keeps the tank full. The second one protects the pump in the event the tank becomes almost empty. One near the top and one near the bottom.

The constant pressure pumps are very expensive and not very reliable. I would stick with the standard Submersible Pump and a Cycle Stop Valve. The valve will give you the constant pressure you want and protect the pump motor as well.

The number of stages is the number of impellers in the pump. More means more pressure, less means less more flow. The BF-1007 is the pump you need.

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amkazen
Junior Member

New Mexico
10 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  10:21:42 AM  Show Profile  Visit amkazen's Homepage Send amkazen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the quick reply. Sorry to keep coming up with questions. How is the BF-1007-122 (230v) pump attached to the cistern's outlet which is at the bottom of the tank under the water? And, I am not even sure what size the outlet is. Doesn't the pump screw onto the outlet?
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11659 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  10:26:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would drop the pump down into the tank from the top. Unless you have no top access. Then I'm not sure how you would do it. I would have to see the tank.

If you can lower it from the top, you can attach your safety float to the same pipe just above the pump so that when the water level gets down near the pump it will shut off and not nuke itself.

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amkazen
Junior Member

New Mexico
10 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  10:35:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit amkazen's Homepage Send amkazen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, there is top access.

I think I am beginning to understand. The new submersible pump is not going to use existing cistern outlet. I will have to attach a new pipe from the new submersible that will come straight up out of the tank and back down to be attached to the exisitng pipe that goes into the house. Is this correct?

If I want to avoid putting a new pipe up & out of the tank I would then have to drain the tank so I can attach the submersible to the existing cistern outlet, correct.
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Carm
Advanced Member

Pa.
92 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  10:50:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit Carm's Homepage Send Carm a Private Message  Reply with Quote

"The new submersible pump is not going to use existing cistern outlet. I will have to attach a new pipe from the new submersible that will come straight up out of the tank and back down to be attached to the exisitng pipe that goes into the house. Is this correct?"

You've got it. A suitable piece of rated pressure hose would make this easy, or some polyethylene and a couple fittings to lay the pump down and get you out the top.

"If I want to avoid putting a new pipe up & out of the tank I would then have to drain the tank so I can attach the submersible to the existing cistern outlet, correct."

Hopefully you have a full port ball valve on the tank outlet, or ANY valve. Never have a tank without ability to stop flow. You could add the submersible after the valve if you use a pump chamber.
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amkazen
Junior Member

New Mexico
10 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  10:57:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit amkazen's Homepage Send amkazen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wouldn't the pump vibrate and move around on the bottom of the tank if it was a pressure rated hose attached to it?

Yes, there is a ball valve outside the tank. So, the submersible actually does not have to be submersed in water, but I can put it outside the tank after the ball valve?
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11659 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  11:15:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Wouldn't the pump vibrate and move around on the bottom of the tank if it was a pressure rated hose attached to it?

No, they run quite smoothly and don't have a lot of starting torque.

quote:
So, the submersible actually does not have to be submersed in water, but I can put it outside the tank after the ball valve?

I'm not sure how you would accomplish that one. The pump is a "submersible" and has to be in water at all times.


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amkazen
Junior Member

New Mexico
10 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  11:17:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit amkazen's Homepage Send amkazen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is what I thought but I got a little confused from the one reply that talked about a ball valve.
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11659 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  11:23:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Carm is going to have to explain that one. I'm not sure what he had in mind either.

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amkazen
Junior Member

New Mexico
10 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  12:03:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit amkazen's Homepage Send amkazen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to say: you have all been PHENOMENAL with your help. THANK YOU.

And, the really good news is a friend stopped by to say hi while on his morning walk. He had already been through this issue a few times with his different properties and suggested we go off to either Lowe's or Home Depot to get a replacement jet pump for the immediate solution and then later this Fall when I have more "available" funds I can go the submersible route. I can get a Flotec 1/2 Horsepower, 8 GPM Shallow Well Jet Pump Composite 30/50 PSI 115V/230V, Model FP4012 for $170.00. Yes, it is plastic (composite) and yes it probably is not a great quality but it should work for awhile, as my friend said he has had pretty good experience with them.
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amkazen
Junior Member

New Mexico
10 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  12:13:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit amkazen's Homepage Send amkazen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From a previous post "You just mentioned three of the junkiest pumps on the market. Flotec being the worst."

but then in another post "Monarch is rather expensive but not a bad choice, Sta-Rite is a very good pump. Keep in mind, Sta-Rite who is now owned by Pentair along with Myers, Aermotor, Berkley and many others is the same company that makes the Flotec. So as you can see, there is no such thing as good or bad. They all do the marketing thing."

so a little confusion here. Does Sta-Rite use different quality materials and manufacturing process in the Flotec pumps than in the MOnarch pumps? The above two comments seem to be in contradiction. Ford makes Fords and Lincolns, and GM makes Cadillac and Chevy but the difference between the luxury and non-luxury cars is just a name" they use the same manufacturing processes and the same quality parts and just charge more for the luxury parts.
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Carm
Advanced Member

Pa.
92 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  1:45:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit Carm's Homepage Send Carm a Private Message  Reply with Quote

"Yes, there is a ball valve outside the tank. So, the submersible actually does not have to be submersed in water, but I can put it outside the tank after the ball valve?"

I'll try to clear this up for you. Submersibles HAVE to be in water. It appears you have been getting info by reading this site...did you read anything about pump shrouds? That is a "sleeve" made of 4" PVC pipe (could be other, PVC is cheap and available) that ensures cooling water is pulled past the pump's motor, and recommended for bottom drawing wells.
A pump chamber is a shroud that has an inlet at the bottom- say a 90deg fitting, a check valve, and a way of attaching to your tank outlet. The other end is a bit more complicated. The pump delivery has to pass through a device sealing the chamber, or shroud, along with the pump wiring. A down and dirty method is to cobble some PVC bushings & a cap together, drill appropriate holes for the wire & silicone them in. You need a closeable port on the delivery side (valve or plug) to enable initial priming of the chamber, the check valve holds the prime thereafter. What you need to accomplish is not a pressure seal, but a vacuum seal- when the pump fires up, it pulls water/air wherever it can, you want water from the tank, not air at the top of the chamber.
The chamber stands upright which extends the life of the pump. Keep the suction side short, with as large a feed as possible....equal to the tank oulet at least.
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11659 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  4:34:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In response to Carms idea: The submersible pump is not a good suction pump. The sleeve was designed to keep cool water passing past the motor to cool them. This is a must in a well that gets it's water from above the pump instead of below. I do know that sub's only catch a prime when the water level is high enough above the pump to push the check valve open and let the air pass out of the impeller stack. If this doesn't happen, the pump will simply burn up. His idea would work, but I can't picture in my mind how you would set it up.

As for the Flotec. The reason StaRite named it that is they didn't want their name associated with it. Since their buyout along with practically all the other brand names to either Pentair or ITT, you can't be sure what your getting any more. I have said this a lot. All that being said, Flotec is still one of the junkiest pumps on the market. Their average life expectancy is 1.5 years. Bring one to my shop or most other pump shops and they will turn you away. Temporarilly, they will work. They are overated hp wise and you could do a lot better with a Monarch. Problem is Monarch has never gotten with the Florida pricing. Otherwise I would have been selling them years ago. They do make a good pump.

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Carm
Advanced Member

Pa.
92 Posts

Posted - May 30 2009 :  5:54:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit Carm's Homepage Send Carm a Private Message  Reply with Quote

"I do know that sub's only catch a prime when the water level is high enough above the pump to push the check valve open and let the air pass out of the impeller stack. If this doesn't happen, the pump will simply burn up. His idea would work, but I can't picture in my mind how you would set it up."

That's what I mean with a closeable port. It would be above the 1&1/4" pump outlet, say a tee with plug or valve. If the water head in the tank is high enough, it will purge any air in the impeller stack. Lacking that, the internal check can be removed, put a check above the purge tee. Then you can verify prime by pouring the chamber full of water & closing the valve or plug.
A shut off float switch or some other low level sensor is a must, you could pump your tank dry with this set-up, depending on where the suction is located.
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11659 Posts

Posted - May 31 2009 :  11:24:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting. You should do a drawing of one so I can grasp how it works. You might be onto something here Carm.

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Carm
Advanced Member

Pa.
92 Posts

Posted - May 31 2009 :  11:56:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit Carm's Homepage Send Carm a Private Message  Reply with Quote

This is one of those things you can't patent, because it is "simple and obvious". Not that too many people sit around and think of sub pumps. I like them but was bothered by laying it down, shortens the life. Seemed the next step up from a shroud.
The main thing is assuring all the suction happens below the pump, that the air is purged from the top.
After googling a bit, I see someone offers the idea commercially. Web search " submersible pump chamber".

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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11659 Posts

Posted - Jun 01 2009 :  09:06:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I notice he doesn't show how he sealed it off above the sleeve. I wonder what kind of magic he uses there?

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Carm
Advanced Member

Pa.
92 Posts

Posted - Jun 01 2009 :  09:34:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit Carm's Homepage Send Carm a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Bob, if you're referring to the Reid site, they use o-rings and mechanical keepers (bolts around the periphery).
My first method involved o-rings too, applied differently. I have some machining capability, no big deal. But I wanted to come up with a method Joe Homeowner could use. By gluing together some Sch.80 fittings into a bush reducer (adapts the pump) that has a 4" spigot fit into a 4" coupling that fits the shroud end, a vacuum tight fit is assured when sealed with silicone or other gasket maker that doesn't attack PVC. The whole shebang could be solvent welded together too, but if your pump takes a dump or something else goes wrong, it's hacksaw time.
The whole thing can be fabbed out of off-the-shelf parts. Sch.80 just makes sense for threaded integrity. Slip/spigot joints are compatible with Sch. 40 for those who don't know.
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11659 Posts

Posted - Jun 01 2009 :  09:57:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Years ago, I took a Century motor attached to a Tait submersible (both long since out of business) put it into a low producing well with a Lemco Draw Down Seal. The seal is supposed to keep the pump from drawing the water table down. It also puts a horendous vacuum on the motor. The pump didn't like the vacuum and soon died. This is when I decided that vacuums and sub motors were not compatable. Could have been a coincidence, but since it cost me the cost of the motor, I didn't try it a second time.

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Carm
Advanced Member

Pa.
92 Posts

Posted - Jun 01 2009 :  10:05:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit Carm's Homepage Send Carm a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Mebbe I should have said "suction seal" instead of vacuum. The main objective is to supply the pump (after the air is purged) with good water flow...1" tank ports would be OK for a booster or jet maybe, but not a submersible.
And the tank has to be vented of course.
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11659 Posts

Posted - Jun 01 2009 :  10:57:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Makes sense to me.

A guy I knew years ago was trying to perfect the same type of system. His idea was to put a sub in a tank full of water that would then pull from a well. All the equipment would be buried outside our of sight and mind. He never actually did anything with the idea, so I don't know if it would have worked or not. I didn't see a market for them, so I couldn't get excited about it.

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Carm
Advanced Member

Pa.
92 Posts

Posted - Jun 01 2009 :  12:20:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Carm's Homepage Send Carm a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I'll try to get a drawing or maybe some pics together for you. I doubt there's a large market, but it might be one of those items you offer like your lake strainer setup. I've learned a lot from your posts and would be happy to reciprocate.
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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11659 Posts

Posted - Jun 01 2009 :  1:28:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A drawing would be great. I'm always open to new and better ideas.

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doudis2
Junior Member

AZ
13 Posts

Posted - Jun 01 2009 :  1:31:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit doudis2's Homepage Send doudis2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Guys,

Ok now you got me scared. After getting advice from Bob I had planned to put a 1/2 HP submer. on its side on the bottom of a 1550 cistern. This is for a brand new setup. I will haul or have water delivered until I can afford to drill a well to supply the cistern.

So please tell me do I need this darned complicated "pump chamber" or not? Can't I just plumb PVC to the outlet of the sub up and out of the cistern to my CSV to my 42 gal bladder then to the house?

This was the plan, but now you guys got me thinking this won't last. I don't want to "experiment" (too poor)I was hoping for a time tested setup. I thought this setup was in regular use by many folks out there, is this not true? If I got to build the chamber then this idea does not seem too good vs. a jet pump or whatever other pumps there are out there.

I hope I did not come off too harsh, but I really am a newbie and I have to develop raw land for my new home (used MH), the water delivery is just one factor. I thought I had this all figured out now I really don't know???

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speedbump
Admin



Riverview
Florida
11659 Posts

Posted - Jun 01 2009 :  1:35:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit speedbump's Homepage Send speedbump a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have used subs on their side many times and have a bunch of customers who have done the same thing. No problem so far. I wouldn't worry about it at all. If you think about it, what can go wrong?

When you read the Franklin Manual, you will see that they err on the side of caution. They want to make it clear to you that anything you do out of the ordinary could void your warranty. This covers them. I don't blame them for this, I just understand their reasoning.

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doudis2
Junior Member

AZ
13 Posts

Posted - Jun 01 2009 :  2:59:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit doudis2's Homepage Send doudis2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you, I feel better. Now if the electric company would finish their engineering drawing I could get power to the property then finally I can order and install my system.
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